My Thoughts on Women's MMA
by Beth on Mar 1, 2010 1:55 PM EST
in Random Thoughts and Ramblings
27 comments
I want to share my thoughts about women's MMA after watching Friday's fight between Kaufman and Hashi. Admittedly, I'm getting into the game late. I've never showed an interest in watching women fight and Friday is the first night that I've watched women fight live. That being said, I made a conscious decision before the fight started to watch it with an open mind in the hope that I could become a fan of women's MMA. This did not happen.
My initial thought on women's MMA was that I did not want to watch women get punched in the face. I had formed that opinion after watching the Carano/Santos fight and the Kim Couture/Kerry Vera fight. Both were particularly brutal due to what I thought was uneven matchups. Santos dominated Carano during their fight, but at least Carano had some fight in her. Plus, she was marketable with her ridiculous gorgeousness (is it jealousy if I admit it?) and previous work as an American Gladiator. It was the Couture/Vera fight that really turned me off. Couture was so obviously outmatched by Vera that I couldn't help but think that the only criteria necessary to give her the fight was the power of her ex-husband's name and a vagina.
Friday night's fight added a new dimension to my dislike of women's MMA. I thought that this fight was ridiculously boring. I was really blown away that these women were considered the best and fighting for a title shot! I think that Sarah Kaufman is a good fighter. But Hashi was so obviously outclassed by her that it was embarrassing to watch. I can't help but feel that there had to be someone better suited to fight Kaufman. And if there isn't? Then women's MMA is in a sad state of affairs.
Here's how I saw the fight, and please feel free to disagree with me. Within about 60 seconds of the first round, it was pretty clear that Kaufman would win this fight. Within 3 minutes of the first round, it was pretty clear that Kaufman wouldn't be doing anything to end the fight quickly. It seemed to me that she knew she was the better fighter than Hashi, but was comfortable waiting out the 5 rounds instead of taking any chances and ending the fight quickly and in a spectacular fashion. The sight of the crowd leaving during the main event confirms to me that people were as bored with this fight as I was.
In thinking back on a few title fights I've recently seen between men, the difference is quite noticeable. Let's take the Lesnar vs. Mir fight. As unpopular an opinion as it is, I am a Mir fan. However, Mir was absolutely dominated during this fight. When Lesnar knew that he had Mir, he didn't sit around dancing with him for 5 rounds. He absolutely destroyed him as quickly as possible, and Mir's face ended up looking like ground beef. Now, I know that not every fight between men is an all out war, however, can we ever expect to see a female fight come anywhere close to the excitement that the Sanchez vs. Guida fight brought us during TUF 9 finale? I don't think so.
I think what we can expect are more uneven matches where the lesser fighter is either beaten to a bloody pulp quickly in the first round or is toyed with for 5 rounds by a woman who doesn't want to take a risk and finish the fight. Is this due to the newness of women fighting MMA, or a lack of women who are interested in fighting? I'm not really sure. But, I don't think that it's due to women not being able to effectively fight. It's more likely that these uneven matches are due to promotions being too quick to jump into showing women fight They are doing these women a disservice by offering them title fights for a belt that some people really don't feel they deserve. No thanks, I don't want it.
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Not a big enough pool, perhaps?
I think the problem with the mismatches that have been happening is that there isn’t a big enough pool of female fighters to pull from. This happened with Santo’s first fight with Strikeforce. Hopefully, as time goes on, there will be more women in each weight class to really make some good match ups. (now, if you’ll watch it then is another story!)
I wonder also how many female fighters are fighters full time? I wonder if the lack of sponsorships and prize money keep women from quiting their day jobs and just training and focusing on their fight careers. Does this keep the pool small as far as well-rounded, ready-to-fight females go?
Or, do the women know that they’ve only got a limited amount of time (10 years??) to be a fighter, but more years ahead of them to have to make money and support themselves. Thus, they don’t quit school or their jobs out of fear that one day they might be really badly messed up and not have money to pay bills?
"Never underestimate the groin strike"
I really think that the talent pool argument is the best one. I’m not sure how many women train full-time, but it seems like a valid explanation. I guess the next question would be, should the bigger promotions be waiting on women’s MMA until there is a better talent pool? I’d be willing to give it another go if the fights started getting better, but will enough people be turned off by then that it never gets going?
Gals Guide to MMA
it was a boring fight and not the typical sarah kaufman performance. once she knew she won
in the late third round she would just throw one punch at a time. hashi takedown attempts were pathetic. if hashi is the top contender in that division sarah kaufman will not be beat just like santas. at least santos is always on the attack. i’ll give her that. i was happy s.k won the 135 pound title but disappointed in the way she did it.
I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. I was building a house, I don't deserve this, deserves have nothing to do with it. Bang. "Unforgiven" I drink your milkshake. I drink it up! "There Will BE Blood"
by wolfmanshowlforever on Mar 2, 2010 1:42 PM EST up reply actions
my thoughts on Hashi
Hashi is a top contender at 135 in Japan where she is fighting girls that weigh 130-135 lbs.
In America, where she fights girls weighing 145+, her style puts her at a giant disadvantage (See her failed takedowns on the bigger Kaufman) and she really doesn’t have much of a shot against the top 5 in the division, if not the top 10
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 2, 2010 10:16 PM EST up reply actions
I would have to agree
If there is no system in place to allow female fights to develop then there will be no good female MMA fights. Period.
On a secondary level, however, styles make fights. Many female MMA fighters (especially the super early days) were not stand-up fighters. They ended up being ground wars. Along comes Cyborg and Carano and you have female fighters giving out beat downs to hopelessly outclassed (with the hands anyway) female fighters. Kaufman comes from the all hands camp, but in this fight chose to avoid injury rather than put away her opponent. Boring.
On a third level, which may even be more important than all the others, is that we have seen a new breed of female fighter – the larger and stronger type (Cyborg anyone?). Kaufman actually fits in that mold as well – she was much larger than Hashi and could physically deal with her any time she wanted.
So if there is not enough good competition around to improve the pool and its a bad match-up style wise to begin with and one opponent is stronger than the other you end up with low excitement fights.
I wouldn’t blame the women though – I love female MMA and hope to see it grow.
"Many female MMA fighters (especially the super early days) were not stand-up fighters. They ended up being ground wars."
This is especially problematic with the newer fans, who are always looking for Tyson style knockouts rather than good ground work.
I’m glad that women like Cyborg and Sarah Kaufman are getting paid to fight and I will watch them each and every time. They remind me of the UFC champions to a large extent: BJ, Brock, GSP and Silva who seem to be fighting from another dimension. Even still, these men sometimes play it safe as you may unfortunately remember Silva’s fight with Thales Leites.
Hashi had a crap game plan. Kaufman played it smart. She’s allowed. Bad game plans and bad match making suck in MMA, whatever the gender of the fighters.
I was at an MMA event a month or so ago and saw two young amateur women go at it. This one girl was knocked down three times in one round. But you could see in her eyes that she was still in it. She came back in the second to sap her opponents will with power punches and was awarded a draw. Their fight brought the house down.
by Emma May on Mar 1, 2010 3:01 PM EST reply actions 2 recs
I would have loved if Friday's fight had been like that.
That’s what I was looking for. I was beyond disappointed that the fight turned out the way that it had.
Gals Guide to MMA
I agree with Emma May
It sounds like you may have seen just a handful of women’s fights Beth, and its important to realize that if you had only seen a handful of mens fights they could have very easily all been boring or mismatched as well. I’ve seen a good number of amazingly competitive, fast actioned fights before.
Women can submit. Women can KO eachother. And woman can have very competitive exciting matches.
The thing is, Strikeforce may be THE woman’s MMA organization for America, but they hardly have all the best women fighters. Sure, they have Kaufman who is a beast at 135. Hashi is a talented ground fighter at 135 as well. Miesha Tate at 135 is a solid wrestler (if you watch her fight with Kaufman, it was much evener, with Tate just not able to get that takedown, and Kaufman winning) And Kerry Vera is a real prospect too. but besides that- their 135 division has nobody on contract. When they were touting “the num 1 and num 2 women in world” the other night, i called bullshit repeatedly.
The fact of the matter is, Tara Larosa can make 135 easily (and has many times) and beat the piss out of Kaufman before submitting her. Well, it would probably be very even standing, maybe a slight advantage for Kaufman, but Larosa has the overall game- wrestling and subs. If you put LaRosa in with anyone, she goes for the kill and forces excitement. The fact that Strikeforce can’t sign her sucks, cuz the shows she fights on nobody sees.
not to mention many other 135ers out there. Yes, the pool is MUCH smaller than the men. It’s like the talent pool for 10 years ago- but even 10 years ago you had the ability to make very good matches for men with a smaller talent pool.
The same goes for the 145 division in Strikeforce. They have made better matches with cyborgs last two fights. But neither Carano or Coenen had a chance really. That’s more of the lines of cyborg just being amazingly strong on her feet. Now, you’ll see Toughill come in and fight her and that should be more competitive (look up Toughill v. Coenen on youtube) Toughill should be able to get in plenty of shots like Coenen, but she has mad finishing power- unlike coenen. But still, they have a weak 145 division and do NOT have even half teh top 10 women in that division fighting under their banner. It feels like they have someone come in for 1 fight, and if they lose they are gone woman-wise.
basically…. what I’m trying to say here is that Strikeforce is trying, but not close, to being the UFC of women’s MMA. What they’ve given you thus far is so-so in the world of women’s fights.
If you REALLY want to open your mind to women’s MMA, please don’t close it after that fight. That would be like someone seeing Silva v. Leben…then later on they see Hong Man Choi v. Conseco….then they open their mind to watch Silva v. Leites and go “aww fuck this shit”
I would be more than happy to comprise a list of 5-10 womens fights and give you links if you like. Real competition, real skill, real excitement. None of them will be from strikeforce unfortunately- all small shows and japanese events.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 6:03 PM EST up reply actions
i'm glad there is a woman on this blog that appreciates women's mma.
it seems the others don’t like it that much.
I'm all about covering the spread and moneylines. I was building a house, I don't deserve this, deserves have nothing to do with it. Bang. "Unforgiven" I drink your milkshake. I drink it up! "There Will BE Blood"
by wolfmanshowlforever on Mar 3, 2010 2:24 PM EST up reply actions
unfortunately for you
I’m all man :-)
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 4, 2010 5:54 AM EST up reply actions
It was the wrong fight for you to see
Hey Beth,
Really, if it were 90% of the other fights out there you would have enjoyed it. May and myself could easily point you to a lot better matches and please don’t give up on the sport.
There is a ranking system in place, but there is still a lot fighters wanting to get pro-fights in, plus some who pad their records by facing debuting fighters, and Strikeforce is just getting their act together on their women’s division. The Zoila Frausto vs. Miesha Tate match coming up should be a barn burner, and there are two great Strikeforce tournaments that will have a lot of talented fighters.
Hang in there. You will be entertained.
fausto v. tate
oh damn! that is gonna be gooooooooooood. I didn’t know this was happening!!!!! when when when????
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 6:04 PM EST up reply actions
Ah, the good ‘ol taste buds debate!
I’m very much a "to each their own" kind of person. We all have our likes and dislikes. So I usually try to not get too involved in these types of discussions. But this time I have to because I do my stupid YouTube show and I’m supposed to defend things like this.
So #1, I’ve probably seen more female MMA fights than the average person and I have to officially say that this one was boring… really boring. Kaufman played it safe. Hashi was too small for her. I was expecting a little more pizzazz since this was a title fight. But truthfully, I’ve sat through quite a few really boring male title fights because the fighter with the belt was being cautious. I don’t think this has any specific reflection on the total sport of women’s mma.
#2, my gut reaction when I see a woman get hit the face is "oooh sweetheart, I hope she’s ok!" My gut reaction when I see a man get hit in the face is to laugh and point and yell "pussy!" Neither of those things have anything to do with watching the sport of MMA. As I became a more informed fan, I see strikes and submissions for what they are – points. It’s not colored by gender.
#3, yes, yes, yes – the talent pool is much smaller than men. As the visibility of women’s mma grows, so does the talent pool. And just to say it’s smaller than men’s doesn’t mean it’s tiny. There are a lot of talented women out there. But the average viewer doesn’t see them. They see who the promoters want them to see.
It makes me nervous when I see negative press around something that struggles to gain fan appreciation in the first place. I like watching women fight. Some people even find it inspiring. And I don’t want to see opportunities be taken away from any fighter – male or female.
by womensmmaroundup on Mar 1, 2010 4:17 PM EST reply actions 1 recs
Great points!
I’m definitely going to keep watching. There are definitely some male fights I’ve seen that would have turned me off to the sport if it had been my first experience. I would love to see a balance between super brutal ass kickings and 5 rounds of picking at each other bit-by-bit. I think that’s where women’s MMA could really be great. As the talent pool grows I think that women will be able to bring something interesting to MMA.
Gals Guide to MMA
true on #1 big time
Japanese fighters rarely cut much weight. We’ve all seen this in male MMA. Ive notice female MMA fights from Japan never cut any weight. Hashi was 2 pounds under after eating breakfast. /I dunno how much Kaufman cut, but she’s prob 10-15 pounds heavier than Hashi- so shes literally bigger by over 10% body weight- which is pure muscle in such an athlete. Thats a LOT.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 6:07 PM EST up reply actions
As for this:
“It was the Couture/Vera fight that really turned me off. Couture was so obviously outmatched by Vera that I couldn’t help but think that the only criteria necessary to give her the fight was the power of her ex-husband’s name and a vagina.”
I certainly don’t disagree with the assessment that Kim’s name got her a fight on the main card (plus one of the largest salaries of the night!), but at the same time she’s trained with reputable gyms/fighters and had a comparable number of MMA bouts to Kerry – on paper the fight was perfectly matched.
I don’t think that anyone quite expected Vera to storm out of the gate and crush Couture like she did, but I think that’s more a testament to her skill as a fighter rather than poor matchmaking on the part of Strikeforce.
Get rid of the ramp!
Do you feel though that there were fighters who deserved the chance more than she did? She may train at a reputable gym, but that doesn’t really mean that she was ready or capable to take on Vera.
Gals Guide to MMA
there 100% are def fighters who deserved it more
Couture may have training with good camps, but there are women out there that have been doing this for years and years on the small stage trying to break through. There are Japanese veterans who are now struggling as their woman’s MMA scene is dwindling oversees. Couture v. Vera happened because of the names. Sure, Vera is actually a beast,but if she never married Brandon she would probably be on a small show beatin some poor girls up trying to get into Strikeforce. hoping for that spot on their tournament…
couture would be in small shows losing. She’s in no way skilled or talented enough to make it in the biz, even now when the talent pool is small
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 6:11 PM EST up reply actions
Other people were arguably more deserving! Definitely. But MMA isn’t a straight up meritocracy, as we’ve all seen (re: Brock Lesnar fighting for the heavyweight title with a 2-1 record).
Unless your name rhymes with “Mina Varano” there are almost no draws in women’s MMA right now, I’m pretty sure the matchup was at least partly based on the common last names of both participants.
Get rid of the ramp!
oh i expected it
I definitely expected it haha Ms. Vera is a beast on her feet and Couture was all about trading. It’s like giving Lesnar a dude that’s 5-0 and trains with some good camps…its gonna be ugly…
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 6:08 PM EST up reply actions
Alright girls prepare to have your mind changed
You have like 10 or so fights in your email inbox.
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 1, 2010 8:30 PM EST reply actions
I’m no expert on the women’s fights, but I do know that I’ve seen some fights on HDNet with some Japanese and Dutch women (no, I so don’t remember names) who spent entire fights beating each other to bloody pulps, and those fights were better than some of the Dream bouts they’d show right after. (Caveat: I think at least one of those fights was kickboxing, not mma… all I remember are kicks that would make Cro Cop flinch) If you have HDNet, I’d totally recommend watching Friday nights. You might catch some good women’s fights that way.
"We don't need no water, let the Badr Hari burn!" - Michael Schiavello
Just like in any MMA event, men or woman, there is bound to be a couple boring fights. Gina vs. Cyborg was not as one-sided as you describe. If Gina had a little more ground technique she easily could of held the mount and finished that bout. The best woman fighting in the world are below the 145lb weight, such as Tara Larosa and Megumi Fuji. The problem is finding an organization that is willing to go out and get these fighters so they can fight each other under the same banner. But don’t let one boring fight persuade you to never watch woman’s mma again.
http://mmascraps.net
did you watch everything I sent you?
Hmmmmm???? There was certainly some Larosa and Mega Megu in there!
Even a broken clock is right two times a day.
by DrunkinMidget187 on Mar 2, 2010 10:17 PM EST up reply actions
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